Octane rating is the least of your problems with modern gas.

"Trevor Slattery, ACTOR" (anacostiabikecompany) 10/01/2014 at 16:10 • Filed to: None

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My background is in the care, maintenance and restoration of British cars. Modern gas is terrible due to ethanol. Ethanol attracts water. Water gets into your gas tank and mixes with the ethanol until the ethanol can no longer take in any more then it separates out and settles to the bottom of the tank (fuel being lighter than water) when it gets into your fuel pump, fuel lines, injectors...you get the idea.

While modern cars are better an handling this (Lexus recalled 250,000 cars because water in ethanol containing fuel was eating up fuel rails from the INSIDE), older cars and carbureted engines just cannot take it. Modern gas containing ethanol will actually go "bad" in about 90 days.

Automotive fuel blends change seasonally as well. The fuel in the summer is engineered to reduce emissions at the expense of the ability to produce power. The cold air is not the only reason your car runs better in the winter.

So if you have ANY object that has an engine and uses gas...use a fuel stabilizer/ethanol treatment if you keep gas in the tank longer than a week. Or empty out the tank in between uses.

The hot tip is to find a place that is willing to sell ethanol free gas:

http://pure-gas.org/

(Updated)

HammerheadFistpunch > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:12

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I thought the blend of the fuel (summer vs winter) was just to adjust the reid vapor pressure.I suppose a resistance to vaporize and reduce volatility may inhibit combustion but I always get much better mileage in the summer vs the winter (though I suspect that may also be a function of the heat I bleed off into the cabin to not freeze to death)

505Turbeaux > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:13

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Agreed. Can get it at the marina if you sign a waiver saying you wont use it on the road. They dont need to know shit...

Racescort666 > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:14

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"Modern gas containing ethanol will actually go "bad" in about 90 days."

So you're telling me that getting gas after the apocalypse is futile after 90 days? Dammit, now I have to rewrite all of my apocalypse emergency action plans.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:15

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Worse, because ethanol and mixtures with it and water are polar, it promotes electrolytic corrosion and crystal forming. I should have taken a picture of the carb on my antique Land Rover after it spent a while sitting... so much green paste from the float and the carb body. Then there was a lawn mower I fixed that had some nice white crystals that got shoved into the pickup tube by the cutoff solenoid. Then there was the other lawn mower that had corrosion pinholes straight through the bowl. Then there was the small engine shop that had about 10 different shades and colors of ethanol gases in jars - all decomposed in different creative ways. Purple, green, dark gunge brown...

Ethanol: not even once.

TA4K > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:16

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I have a 1970 Triumph 2000 MK2, do you think I would need a lead additive and fuel stabilizer or similar? Thanks.

deekster_caddy > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:16

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True statements. I always put fuel stabilizer in my MG as I don't know when the next time I might use it is going to be. I love to drive it, but this summer has not been MG friendly to me.

I've never had an 'old gas' problem with it.

In MA, it's not legal to sell ethanol-free fuel.

vicariousILive > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:17

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interesting that Alaska only has ethanol free gas

Jedidiah > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:18

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Excellent Link. Bookmarked.

Unfortunately, in the winter they put out more volatile (cheaper) grades of gas so the performance gain, at to least to my understanding, is made neglible or non-existant.

How necessary or effective do you think fuel stabilizers are? I use my older cars quite frequently but all the gasoline treatments I've ever used don't seem to do much. Escpecially octane boosters; they don't seem to do a damn thing.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > 505Turbeaux 10/01/2014 at 16:19

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Yes, marina gas is awesome. Haha.

I hate that Michigan does not have a low requiring gas stations to disclose ethanol content. But a search on the web reveals there are NO full-on gasoline stations in my immediate area :( I think it's like a 20 mile drive, at least.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > vicariousILive 10/01/2014 at 16:19

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Totally shocking that stranding people in the wilderness to die is frowned upon. Totally shocking.

Eh, part of it is probably due to transport for blending being more of a headache.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 10/01/2014 at 16:20

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i just looked on the list too, it's pretty much all "up north"

Jedidiah > Racescort666 10/01/2014 at 16:20

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Unless you convert your cars to run on ethanol.

You could have a mobile distillery and just produce really cheap alcohol to run in it so your Mad Max dreams aren't totally ruined.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > HammerheadFistpunch 10/01/2014 at 16:21

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Yep, but I feel like I can tell the day that winter fuel blend is announced that my mileage goes down, while the temperatures haven't quite plummeted yet.

HammerheadFistpunch > vicariousILive 10/01/2014 at 16:21

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you found a place, and boy did it make a difference, I wish there was a place near me. I also with the Ethanol mandate would die the death.

Battery Tender Unnecessary > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:22

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Local place has 100% 93 Octane, no ethanol. It's all I buy if I can help it. And thankfully, I've been seeing more 100% gas stations pop up. Since the subsidy on ethanol expired there's one less reason to carry it (as if the catastrophic engine damage on vehicles not designed for it and 10% less energy per volume weren't enough).

Trevor Slattery, ACTOR > HammerheadFistpunch 10/01/2014 at 16:22

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It even varies at the state level. Gas from one part of the country can have an ENTIRELY different fuel profile that gas from someplace else at the same time of the year. Again, modern fuel injected cars a better and handling the differences because of all their monitoring and adjusting abilities. Older cars...keep the carb and timing tools handy.

Racescort666 > Jedidiah 10/01/2014 at 16:23

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As a bonus, I could be a traveling whiskey trader as my post-apocalyptic employment. I feel this is probably more profitable and less dangerous than being a bandit.

ly2v8-Brian > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:24

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That's bad. Try biodiesel in winter.

HammerheadFistpunch > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 10/01/2014 at 16:24

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Yeah I drop 1 mpg instantly when winter blend hits. I remember with the family suburban we got much better winter mileage running midgrade than we ever got running premium in the summer.

HammerheadFistpunch > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:25

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Truth, my dad worked for the Chevron refinery here in Utah for a number of years as an engineer, he tried to explain it all to me but I've forgotten more than I ever knew.

Jedidiah > Racescort666 10/01/2014 at 16:26

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That actually sounds pretty awesome.

You won't need to go more than a few miles a day, so just a few gallons will last you for a long time.

I imagine alcohol will be very valuable in an apocolypse situation as well. Possible medical uses, water treatment, pain killing, etc.

Trevor Slattery, ACTOR > ly2v8-Brian 10/01/2014 at 16:28

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Biodiesel has its own issue with storage. Being organic, microorganisms (slime and sludge forming bacteria and such) can grow in biodiesel tanks if they have any water content and get a change to "ferment".

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > Racescort666 10/01/2014 at 16:28

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Just make sure you pump the good gas off the top of the tank. Post apocalypse the water and ethanol shit will sink to the bottom. You will be able to get better fuel 90 day post apocalypse.

T5Killer > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:29

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Its a huge problem for small engines (ie lawn mowers, ETC) my work sometimes involves small engines and ethanol is a huge problem in that industry.

Trevor Slattery, ACTOR > TA4K 10/01/2014 at 16:29

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I suggest them highly dude. Just go to the local chain auto store and scoop some. They stock several kinds.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > HammerheadFistpunch 10/01/2014 at 16:30

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That and all the corn subsidies. They both have to go away to get rid of ethanol tainted fuel.

thebigbossyboss > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/01/2014 at 16:30

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But but....what about the Iowa?

thebigbossyboss > HammerheadFistpunch 10/01/2014 at 16:30

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Also you tend to idle more in winter to a warm up car and b traffic b worse.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > thebigbossyboss 10/01/2014 at 16:31

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Tetraethyl lead - it does a body good.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 10/01/2014 at 16:31

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It's not quite that bad, but living downtown GR, nothing is close. I think there is a city ordinance that it can't be sold for pollution reasons.

Trevor Slattery, ACTOR > Battery Tender Unnecessary 10/01/2014 at 16:32

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The subsidy had more to do with selling ethanol than any environmental issue. There is no evidence that ethanol serves any purpose in gas other than to give corn producers and ethanol refiners a market.

HammerheadFistpunch > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 10/01/2014 at 16:32

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100% okay with this.

HammerheadFistpunch > thebigbossyboss 10/01/2014 at 16:33

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A is true mostly, B isn't except on bad snow days.

even on an empty highway. Its especially true of the TDI

thebigbossyboss > HammerheadFistpunch 10/01/2014 at 16:34

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The question remains...will US use the same stupid blend last year that kept freezing up on truckers?

ly2v8-Brian > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:34

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I mentioned winter because here in MN that stuff will turn into solid wax. Right now it's B20 by the end of the decade they want it at B25 if I remember correctly. At least there are additives that can help but it still gels pretty bad. What you said though is also very true. There are additives to prevent it as well.

Battery Tender Unnecessary > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:34

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Yeah, I meant financial reason. Ethanol is meant to be consumed orally, not automotively.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:37

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That reminds me, I'm going to have to pull my gas tank at some point in the future and check if everything is okay. My truck doesn't run nearly as much as I would like to keep the gas fresh.

Trevor Slattery, ACTOR > T5Killer 10/01/2014 at 16:37

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Two cycle engines really can't handle the ethanol/2-cycle oil/fuel mixture man. The water and ethanol render the lubricating properties of the oil useless. It is a bad scene...

TA4K > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:38

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Awesome mate, thanks!

HammerheadFistpunch > thebigbossyboss 10/01/2014 at 16:40

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I hadn't heard that. I had the tdi down to negative temps (f) and it always worked great. Maybe Utah just knows whats up with their blend.

Mr. Ontop, No Strokes, No Smokes...Goes Fast. > vicariousILive 10/01/2014 at 16:41

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Because EVERYTHING freezes, gas, oil, Lube grease....you name it. I lived there for 5 years. I had one old car that the metal on the handle became so brittle it snapped off too....good times. Sometimes it gets so damn cold even the oil pan heaters don't make much of a difference.

#idontmissit

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 10/01/2014 at 16:46

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thats what I get for scanning the list and not pulling up a map.

i'm on a bit of an island as well though

thebigbossyboss > HammerheadFistpunch 10/01/2014 at 16:47

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You would think the northern states would know better.

T5Killer > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:47

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Yep that's what all the factory reps from B&S, MTD ETC have all told me.

treesmakewater > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 16:48

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a local chain in my area sells 87 and 93 octane that is ethanol free.

HammerheadFistpunch > thebigbossyboss 10/01/2014 at 16:49

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strange, not enough kerosene I guess.

treesmakewater > HammerheadFistpunch 10/01/2014 at 16:50

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wait, so ethanol free fuel on the road is illegal? Or is it a state mandate?

HammerheadFistpunch > treesmakewater 10/01/2014 at 16:53

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The ethanol mandate is # of gallons of Ethanol used as fuel which means that in practice ALL fuels have to be blended. Its not legal in some states to have unblended fuel but for the most part its legal, though hard[ish] to find.

treesmakewater > Battery Tender Unnecessary 10/01/2014 at 16:53

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would you rather have 0% ethanol and unknown additives or "quality " additives and 10% ethanol? I face this decision constantly in my area

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 10/01/2014 at 16:56

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Sounds like a good reason for a bed mounted gas tank on a truck, if I ever get one, so i can fuel my small engine stuff with pure gasoline. Sounds like that type of stuff is hurt the most by ethanol.

40 gallons in a bed mounted tank is like 8-14 jet ski trips (I don't burn a full 5 gallons every time). Also i don't have a jetski, but I ride frequently and I want one and I'd want to take care of it.

40 gallons would also be a ton of lawn mowings, weed whackings or whatever you want.

Trevor Slattery, ACTOR > HammerheadFistpunch 10/01/2014 at 16:57

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http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/gas…

I do some work for the EPA on occasion. Here is a good link to the various gas standards broken down by county and state.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 10/01/2014 at 16:58

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if you get one be smart enough to get two, then you can bring a friend

.

.

.

.

like me lol

I want it for the Montego. 40 gallons would get me over 2 tanks and cover almost the year.

treesmakewater > HammerheadFistpunch 10/01/2014 at 16:59

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my friend's dad (bless him) owns a chain of gas stations in my area and sells 87 on a separate pump that's ethanol free, and all of his 93 pumps are ethanol free. Every other station in my area has ethanol (apart from one station with 87 around back)

Trevor Slattery, ACTOR > thebigbossyboss 10/01/2014 at 16:59

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Unless mandated they change it....prolly.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 10/01/2014 at 17:05

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Yeah I bet the Montego would thank you very much for pure gasoline, so you put about 750 miles on the Montego every year?

mXxxxXm24 /O/ /O/ > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 17:32

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I thought E85 was the only Ethanol blend. Damn. I usually fill up and then go through a tank in 2 weeks or less. I know you said a week, but would 2 weeks cause damage? Also, I drive a '96 Miata if that matters.

Nibbles > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 17:40

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I've been the "victim" of water in the fuel before. It nearly killed my Saab. Thankfully I can just pump it out and throw it in the Dakota. That sloppy old 5.2 with its overglorified-TBI-but-we-call-it-MPFI will gladly burn anything that is remotely burnable. It's even chugged through fuel my lawn mower turned its nose up to.

At least I don't waste the shitty gas :)

Zipppy, Mazdurp builder, Probeski owner and former ricerboy > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 19:03

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There's quite a few stations local to me that have pure gas. Most Excellent.

How does ethanol affect early EFI gasoline engines? Just curious.

On a related note, my grandfather owned a 1990 Chevrolet Monza (rebadged Opel Ascona) in Brazil that ran on ethanol. he added a litre of gasoline per full tank of ethanol to aid cold starts.

twochevrons > TA4K 10/01/2014 at 19:16

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You definitely want a lead-substitute additive in the Triumph engine, and the highest octane petrol you can find. Ours never ran right on anything but 98. We used Valvemaster additive in ours – it comes in little orange syringes, and you just squirt one in after filling the tank. It always used to be that petrol stations would keep a case of them behind the counter, and you'd just ask for one when you walked in to pay. Not sure if that's the case now.

Unless things have changed drastically since I left NZ a couple of years ago, you shouldn't have to worry about ethanol – I think that Gull's 98 octane was E5, but I don't think that anybody else sells ethanol-containing fuel in NZ.

TA4K > twochevrons 10/01/2014 at 19:25

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thanks man, will do.

ranwhenparked > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/01/2014 at 22:28

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There's a few places around me that are advertising ethanol-free gas. I didn't even realize it was still an option.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Racescort666 10/01/2014 at 23:04

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It is why most commercial generators run on diesel.

ArmadaExpress drives a turbo outback > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/02/2014 at 08:34

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Well Tuners love ethanol because you can do a lot with higher compression builds (ie. boost). While negatively affecting MPG it can be a great thing for more power.

Trevor Slattery, ACTOR > ArmadaExpress drives a turbo outback 10/02/2014 at 08:56

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I am a big VW guy. You are right, there are tuners doing some wild stuff taking advantage of the properties of E85. There are water/alcohol injections kits available as well. I would use it on track days if I had a car set up to take advantage of it. But then...out it comes.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 10/02/2014 at 09:09

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Not even it's just very thirsty lol. I haven't put 1000 on it in the 3.5 years I've owned it.

Philbert/Phartnagle > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 10/02/2014 at 10:42

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You can also rig up a way to remove the alcohol, but you will need to find a safe place to dispose of it.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

The Stig's Rustbelt Cousin > HammerheadFistpunch 10/02/2014 at 16:55

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Use of the cabin heater in the winter has no effect on your engine's fuel consumption, because it uses engine coolant to heat the air, so it's basically just wasted heat being put to good use. Using the A/C will increase your fuel consumption, but that's a whole other story.

Your decreased winter mileage has more to do with the fact that winter-grade fuel has even more ethanol than normal, because it freezes at a lower temperature than gasoline, and since ethanol contains less energy than an equivalent volume of gasoline, you get a noticeable drop in mileage.

The Stig's Rustbelt Cousin > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 10/02/2014 at 16:56

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Winter blend has more ethanol to make it resistant to freezing. Ethanol contains less energy than an equal amount of gasoline, so you will get fewer miles per gallon as a result.

HammerheadFistpunch > The Stig's Rustbelt Cousin 10/02/2014 at 16:59

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the ethanol content isn't to prevent freezing (gas freezes at -40 to -50 C), its an oxygenate to lower Co emissions and using a heater will consumer more fuel in the same way that you burn more calories when you are cold. Its waste heat but when you are wasting more of it, it has to come from somewhere.

The Stig's Rustbelt Cousin > HammerheadFistpunch 10/02/2014 at 17:16

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Using a heater will use more fuel, assuming that you're using fuel solely to power a heater, so yes, the colder it gets, the more fuel oil the boilers in your building's basement will require to sustain 70 degrees in your upstairs apartment.

Car engines work differently, though. Below operating temperature, your car's engine is less efficient. Once it reaches operating temperature, the thermostat opens so that the excess heat can be disposed of by the radiator. Your heater core is basically the same as a radiator, only its coolant loop comes from the back of the engine instead of the front, and its coolant flow is not regulated by the thermostat. Regardless of ambient temperature, your engine does exactly the same thing, in every season: when it's cold-started, it idles high until the coolant reaches whatever temperature your thermostat is set for, then the thermostat takes over the task of regulating the engine temperature, which it will do, regardless of coolant flow into the heater core. If you drive at freeway speed in the winter, a properly-functioning thermostat will close, cutting off the radiator from the cooling loop, because if it stayed open, the coolant temperature would drop below the optimal level.

In short, using the heater does not require the engine to consume any additional heat to maintain its optimal temperature, because your HVAC has no control over the temperature of the coolant.

HammerheadFistpunch > The Stig's Rustbelt Cousin 10/02/2014 at 17:29

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I'm quite aware of how heating cores work, but what you are suggesting goes against the laws of thermodynamics - if heat is lost (moved into the cabin and eventually drawn out of the cabin) then energy is lost. Period.

The Stig's Rustbelt Cousin > HammerheadFistpunch 10/02/2014 at 17:37

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The heat/energy is already lost when combustion occurs, because it is nothing more than a byproduct created by the engine as it generates power. The thermostat regulates how that waste heat is disposed of, while the heater core harnesses that wasted energy to heat the cabin. If the heater core were not part of the cooling system, it would have no effect on the amount of waste heat that the engine generates.

Bandit > Trevor Slattery, ACTOR 11/18/2014 at 18:15

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You see, the no ethanol gas station in town has their prices $0.50 higher per gallon that everywhere else. I can't justify the extra $10 per tank.

vdub_nut: scooter snob > Racescort666 11/18/2014 at 18:28

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after the apocalypse you'll be living hobo-style on beans. Getting gas will be the least of your worries.

#zinger

vdub_nut: scooter snob > Philbert/Phartnagle 11/18/2014 at 18:34

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I safely dispose of ethanol several nights a week.